Kevin Standlee ([info]kevin_standlee) wrote,
@ 2009-10-14 09:51:00
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Current location:Mehama, Oregon
Current mood: thoughtful
Entry tags:site selection, smofs, worldcon, wsfs

Lowering Worldcon Voting Cost
Several things have come up on The List That Shall Not Be Named Because It's Secret but that I think are interesting. Here's the first of them. I intend to write about at least one more of the subjects later, but I have other things I must do today and probably won't get to it until at least tomorrow.

Currently, when you cast a site selection ballot for Worldcon, you must pay what is technically known as an Advance Supporting Membership Fee (but what almost everyone calls the "Voting Fee"). That makes you a member of the Worldcon two years hence and allows you to vote on where it will be held. If you vote, you automatically get a supporting membership in that Worldcon. (That's why it's called an Advance Supporting Membership.) You also get the right to convert that supporting membership into an attending membership for not more than twice the amount you paid to vote for at least 90 days after the election. (In other words, voting purchases an option on an attending membership.) I'm going to use "ASM" to mean "Advance Supporting Membership (Voting) Fee" hereafter.

Worldcons don't want to sell memberships that cost them more to provide than they receive in revenue. That's understandable; no retailer wants to sell a product or service at less than the cost of goods sold/service provided. With some knowledge of what it costs to put in a Worldcon, most recent Worldcons have tended to charge the maximum amount they can to convert to an attending membership. Moreover, since the ASM sets an effective cap on attending membership cost for at least 90 days, bidding committees tend to want to push the cost of the ASM, and consequently the Worldcon supporting membership, higher and higher.

An analysis of the cost of providing the services in a supporting membership leads to the conclusion that supporting memberships are vastly overpriced. While part of the purpose of a supporting membership is to support the Worldcon, you could probably sell a supporting membership for $25-$30 and still produce revenue in excess of cost-of-provision-of-service to help support that Worldcon. And the current supporting membership cost is clearly driving people away from getting involved in any sort of participation in Worldcon, such as voting for the Hugo Awards.

With your initial attending membership prices set as a function of the ASM, even if a committee wanted to make it cheaper to join as a supporting member, they couldn't do so without cutting their economic throats on the cost of an attending membership. The price cap used to be even lower, and it was a pretty good rule of thumb that Worldcons were losing money on every early attending membership they were selling. Essentially the regular participants in WSFS, by setting up the price-cap rules, were giving themselves a below-cost membership subsidized by anyone who bought his/her membership later.

Some people have suggested raising the multiplier (currently 2x) to a higher value, such as 2.5, 3, or 4x, so that committees could agree to lower the ASM while still collecting the same attending membership. Others have said that if you raise the multiplier, committees would immediately jump the initial attending membership to the maximum allowed value. That's about what happened when the cap was raised from 1x to 2x the ASM, after all. However, I think that's because 1x was entirely unrealistic and committees hadn't yet twigged to substantially raising the ASM anyway.

My idea is a bit more radical: I propose that we eliminate the price cap tying the ASM fee to the initial cost of a Worldcon attending membership. Let Worldcon committees charge anything they want for their attending memberships, regardless of whether the person voted or not. (You'd still want to specify that supporting members of any stripe get credit for whatever they'd already paid when they upgraded to attending, I guess.) Then start pressuring bidding committees to lower the ASM and pledge lower supporting membership costs -- say in the $20-$40 range. Criticize committees that won't commit to such a cost. We currently apply such moral suasion to get bids to agree to participate in Pass-Along Funds; why couldn't we do the same to pester them into offering more-affordable supporting memberships?

I suggest that the target cost of a supporting membership should be approximately the cost of a new SF/F hardcover book -- not much more, and probably not much less, either. I think this would prevent causal ballot-box stuffing (the usual bugaboo raised when anyone wants to lower membership cost) while not scaring off so many people as the current cost of around $50 does.



(49 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]redneckotaku
2009-10-14 05:40 pm UTC (link)
If you are willing to write this for 2011, I am willing to be one of your supporters. This is a great idea that I would be there and push for. Not everyone is able to go to the Worldcon every year and $50 (for AUssiecon IV) is expensive for a supporting membership. I also do have a Supporting membership for Aussiecon IV.

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[info]randy_smith2
2009-10-14 07:09 pm UTC (link)
This post has resulted in my thinking, "Hmmmmm." I think it's worth talking about.

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[info]edgreen86
2009-10-14 07:49 pm UTC (link)
"Criticize committees that won't commit to such a cost."

Wow - public flaying of a non-seated committee. Ain't that a first. ;)

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[info]bovil
2009-10-14 11:17 pm UTC (link)
Social pressure is all we've got. If it wasn't for social pressure "pass along funds" would have probably died rather than becoming a hallowed tradition that no bid dare flout.

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[info]jcbemis
2009-10-14 08:09 pm UTC (link)
as long as the voting fee didn't guarantee hardcopy publications, lower cost might work... thinking out loud here

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-14 08:22 pm UTC (link)
The only hardcopy publications whose production costs I would count toward that are the progress reports. The Souvenir Book's production costs should net to zero or negative if you've done your ad sales properly, so charging a notional $10 or whatever isn't reasonable. Therefore, the only variable cost associated with it is the postage.

Worldcons have started producing fewer pre-con publications, and fewer of those are being published. Excluding the production cost of the Souvenir Book, I estimate that the variable cost of a supporting membership is in the $10-$15 range. As fewer members take paper publications, that cost will go down below $10.

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[info]jcbemis
2009-10-14 09:50 pm UTC (link)
"The Souvenir Book's production costs should net to zero..."

I don't know how many recent worldcon budgets you've looked at after the books were closed - I've been involved in the budgets/collections for several program books when I was selling fan ads, and that works about half the time from what I've seen.

and few worldcons have managed a 100% collection rate on ads placed.

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[info]bovil
2009-10-14 11:24 pm UTC (link)
Well, that's cost accounting and collections.

Someone ought to be doing cost accounting on the program book if the goal is to have it ad-supported. I've worked in organizations where it was decided that there would be no more ads in the program book after figuring out that several years of ads were in the end a wash or a net loss.

Collections are simpler. Determine which ads are comped/traded and which are paid. Don't accept any ads that aren't submitted with payment. Don't add them to the layout until payment is received. Problem solved.

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[info]jcbemis
2009-10-15 05:55 pm UTC (link)
the publishing industry is unfortunately used to a "payment on tear sheet" system, and therefore the fan ads who are worse at paying seem to get to slide

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[info]querldox
2009-10-14 10:37 pm UTC (link)
One possible problem; how often, due to no zone and two year, are we going to see competitive bids? Admittedly due to Seattle having to bow out (and whatever reasons Reno had for going up against them), right now if I'm recalling correctly we have 3 solo bids in a row; Melbourne, Reno, and Chicago. And I've not heard any muttering about anyone going up against San Antonio for 2013. If there's no other bid, moral suasion gets a lot weaker, and potentially a bid could significantly up their initial attending cost under this proposal.

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[info]petrea_mitchell
2009-10-14 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Moral suasion still exists in the threat that someone could come up with a competing bid. For instance, if San Antonio announces that they're not going to participate in pass-along funds, it makes 2013 a more attractive year for other potential bids.

If the multiplier is removed, people will start asking questions at the Fannish Inquisition about what approach the bids will use for setting their attending prices should they win.

(Incidentally, there was a serious but short-lived competing bid for Zagreb in 2013.)

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[info]tkunsman
2009-10-15 01:24 pm UTC (link)
Very sad to hear that the Zagreb 2013 bid is dead. Hope they do come back for another year.

Did they get scared from the potential of to many non north american bids/cons in a row I wonder??

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[info]petrea_mitchell
2009-10-15 04:54 pm UTC (link)
All I know for sure is that they showed up in Denver, talked about the bid at the Business Meeting, left copies of an interesting translated zine in the fanzine lounge, but had dropped the bid by the end of the convention. Rumor had them deciding they'd bitten off more than they could chew and deferring the bid until they'd built up more local con-running expertise, but I don't know how true that is.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 03:30 pm UTC (link)
A corollary to this proposal that I saw and think might be useful would be to require bids to declare in their bid filing, along with the other required elements, what they will charge for their initial attending membership, and to lock that in for at least 90 days. (In practice, I expect the rate would be good through at least the end of the calendar year in which the convention was selected.) This means that you could start pestering bids to say how much they plan to charge, and if they give unsatisfactory answers, competition could arise to fill the void. I'm not saying the Hawaii in '93 Worldcon bid was a good thing -- it caused me a lot of personal anguish -- but it was clearly driven by a sense that all of the bids in the race had defaulted in some way.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 03:33 pm UTC (link)
...a bid could significantly up their initial attending cost under this proposal.
And, as I said below, if all bids started doing that, it's not necessarily a bad thing if it goes with a corresponding decline in the cost of supporting memberships. There's an inherent unfairness in imposing a subsidized low-cost attending membership for people simply because they happen to be insiders. A reduction in the gradient between the lowest and highest attending membership costs is not necessarily a bad thing, other than possibly reducing some of the incentive for buying memberships early.

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[info]petrea_mitchell
2009-10-14 11:38 pm UTC (link)
$25-30 seems just about right to me, as long as it really does cover all the costs incurred by adding a supporting member. I've been all for at least doubling the current multiplier for a while; I say go for it. (Unfortunately I probably can't be in Australia to actually vote for it if the motion is introduced next year.)

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Conventions
[info]travelswithkuma
2009-10-15 08:44 am UTC (link)
Bears like World Con.Can Bears still go to Cons?

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Re: Conventions
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 03:19 pm UTC (link)
Absolutely Bears can still go to cons!

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Re: Conventions
[info]apostle_of_eris
2009-10-16 05:21 pm UTC (link)
But can they vote in Site Selection??

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Re: Conventions
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-16 05:45 pm UTC (link)
Yes, if they have a class of membership that includes voting rights; however, they are required to vote No Preference. Yes, there's specific legislation on the subject (Section 6.2 of the WSFS Constitution), and it was a stuffed companion that triggered it off back in 1990.

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Let the teddy bear vote!
[info]apostle_of_eris
2009-10-16 10:20 pm UTC (link)
I was there! I was at the voting table when Elan and Sherlock Hoka tried to vote; I was still there ten or fifteen minutes later when she came back with several former Worldcon Chairmen and was still refused; and I was at the hysterical sequence of Business Meeting fol-de-rol that ensued.
I'm still getting laughs and boggling people with the long version of the story.
I mean, people who think Robert’s Rules are fun?

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Re: Let the teddy bear vote!
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-16 10:58 pm UTC (link)
You obviously have not cultivated an appropriate appreciation of Recreational Parliamentary Procedure. It's as entertaining as other forms of improvisational theatre, debate, and other games with complex rules.

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Not at all convinced ...
[info]paradoox
2009-10-15 01:13 pm UTC (link)
So, people with no incentive or likelihood of going to going to the WorldCon would be encouraged to vote? So, we'd have even more uber-smof voting for their friends?

I also think this would drive up the lowest possible membership cost.

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Re: Not at all convinced ...
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 03:27 pm UTC (link)
So, people with no incentive or likelihood of going to going to the WorldCon would be encouraged to vote?
I don't think so. And I think this constant chorus of "Ballot Box Stuffing" is thoroughly overstated. Was there a huge rash of ballot-box stuffing back in 1990, when the cost to vote was more than 25% cheaper (in real, inflation-adjusted terms) than it is today?
I also think this would drive up the lowest possible membership cost.
It might, at that, and if so, it means that the early membership costs are being kept artificially low at the expense of the people who aren't insiders. Sure, it's helpful to you personally to oblige other people to subsidize your membership, but is it really fair?

Besides that, the current system doesn't really keep the initial membership costs in check. All it does is give bids an incentive to drive up the Advance Supporting Membership (Voting) Fee so that they can charge more for the initial attending membership. Essentially, it's forcing Worldcons to overcharge for supporting memberships, with the consequent effect of driving people away who might have some interest but who are being daunted by an up-front investment of $100. That's not a trivial amount for something with only intangible benefits.

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[info]purpleranger
2009-10-15 05:50 pm UTC (link)
And this "casual ballot-box stuffing" would be a bad thing because . . . ?

Seriously. Worldcons are trying to attract more members. I would submit that anything that brings in more members (particularly more NEW members) is not a bad thing. And I would think that more people buying supporting memberships at a lower price would probably bring just as much (if not more) money than fewer supporting memberships at a higher price.

And as [info]redneckotaku said, if you want to submit this idea as an item of new business for the 2010 BM, I would be willing to be a seconder.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 05:57 pm UTC (link)
Much depends on whether I am able to go to Australia or not. I could still submit it remotely -- we don't require people to be at the meeting to submit business -- but generally speaking, not having a proposal's advocate present means it's unlikely to pass.

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[info]twilight2000
2009-10-15 06:06 pm UTC (link)
While I can't be in Australia to speak for this, I will be in Reno and there I can be of some help if it's still alive. It makes sense to break the connection to allow for lower supporting - it also makes sense to consider some kind of cap on the initial supporting - or to require bids to list their supporting openly before the vote - the point being to keep a bid from getting stupid with their supporting memberships and going *the other way* than intended. Yes, it would lose them some (ok, many) supporting memberships if they raise the rate - but it would also allow a bid to control who's involved (the old "they're not like us" problem) - and that's a bad thing.

By either capping the cost or requiring a public listing of price BEFORE the vote, you solve that potential issue.

And if you introduce it in Reno in 2011, I would also 2nd - it should be discussed.

Edited at 2009-10-15 06:08 pm UTC

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[info]colin_hinz
2009-10-15 07:37 pm UTC (link)
I am totally in favour of eliminating the multiplier. The only question I have is, "Why on earth hasn't this been proposed years ago?"

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 07:44 pm UTC (link)
Eliminating the cap hasn't been made it to the floor of the BM, but the most recent attempt in that direction, which would have been to raise the multiplier from 2 to 3, reached the floor in 2006 (search for 4.3.2). The proposal failed on a vote by show of hands (which means the outcome wasn't close and that a clear majority of the BM attendees opposed it).

I think the gist of the opponents' arguments is that bid committees wouldn't lower the ASM/Voting Fee, but would immediately raise initial attending memberships to $200 if the cap wasn't in place.

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Upping the multiplier
[info]cooper_stephen
2009-10-17 11:24 am UTC (link)
They were probably right in some ways, as the multiplier not only gives us a much higher ASM, but I believe in someways it has also has a tedancy to drive up the initial attending rate (IAR) faster than might otherwise have been the case.

A lot of people tend to think of the IAR as been 3 times the ASM. But when we need to see a slightly higher rate, we don't see a $5 increase in the IAR, as been good logical folk we want an ASM divisable by $5. So when rates have to go up, as they will with inflation, the IAR has a tendancy to jump by $15, because the ASM went up by $5. After a few years folk have got used to that IAR and after a few more inflation is requiring them to look at raising the IAR again. So you get another $15 jump.

This might well have been exacipated by a multiplier of 3 as the jumps would have been $20 a time, and the benefit is only a marginally lower ASM as at todays $50 ASM, we are looking at $150 IAR. Bring this change in and the IAR will probably go to $160 and the ASM would still be $40.

What needs to be broken is the link between the IAR and the ASM, and if folk are worried find a different mechanism to control prices, and the idea of forcing Worldcon bids to announce their IAR as a part of their filing seems to be very sensible solution to that problem. Peer pressure if far more effective than any technical limits like the multiplier.


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[info]iylliana
2009-10-15 08:08 pm UTC (link)
"So, people with no incentive or likelihood of going to going to the WorldCon would be encouraged to vote?"

That's me. The cost of attending a Worldcon is so far out of my budget it isn't even funny. But every year I long to vote for the Hugo's. I would buy a $25 'voting right' in a heartbeat, and I bet a bunch of other people would too. Perhaps, so many people would that it could justify the lowered price? I dunno, you'd need a general poll of fandom.

Of course, if the whole concept of the award is to keep it to potential Worldcon attendees only that's another thing. But perhaps you should then change the description from 'science fiction’s most prestigious award' to 'science fiction's most pretigious middle-class award', to more accurately reflect the class bias in the voting?

As most of the world's industries are in the process of either dying or diversifying, isn't it a bit anal of fandom to take the view that we should exclude a large portion of people who might give us money and won't even attend and use up resources?

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 08:14 pm UTC (link)
Of course, I'm sure that if we do get it to the point where it only costs $25 or so to vote for the Hugo Awards, we'll get people still complaining about how desperately unfair it is that you have to pay anything to vote and that everything should be free, since those fat-cats putting on conventions are raking in the Big Bucks and so on. We'll also get people complaining bitterly about how awful it is that it costs only $25 to vote, so that so many people who don't think like me Fake Fans swamp the ballot box instead of giving the award to Good Things.

Cynical? Moi?

But seriously, I think the $20-$30 range -- the cost-of-a-typical-SF/F-hardcover I mentioned -- is about the right balance. Too much less than that and the chance of casual ballot-box-stuffing starts to climb above tiny percentages, while too much more (like we have now) drives away people with a genuine interest in the field by causing them to question whether it's really worth paying the cost of multiple books or DVDs or whatever just to vote on the Award.

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[info]paradoox
2009-10-15 11:09 pm UTC (link)
I have no problem with lowering the bar for voting on the Hugos to $25 or even $10. What I do have a problem with is lowering the bar on voting for site selection. People who have no intention of attending the convention should have to pay (and I might say through the nose) to vote. Otherwise big cities and or big clubs will throw the vote. It sounds like what you really want to do is allow conventions to sell a supporting membership for less than the site selection fee.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-15 11:23 pm UTC (link)
I think we overcharge for a membership in WSFS -- the supporting membership. (I consider the spread between supporting and attending to be the "convention supplement.") We currently tie the cost of a supporting membership to attending memberships in such a way that causes us to charge too much for them. I want to put a stop to that.

You haven't answered my question. Twenty years ago, the cost of voting was more than 25% cheaper, in real terms, than it is today. By your theory, site selection should have been dominated by the Big Clubs and Big Cities "buying" the vote. It is unclear that this is the case. If it was, how did Winnipeg win 1994? How could Los Angeles have possibly lost to The Hague? Etc. You have theory. I can show real, hard, facts of real elections that happened in this universe that disprove your apparent theory that only Big Cities can possibly win Worldcon.

You say, "People who have no intention of attending the convention should have to pay...." I do not see how this follows at all. I think you would see people have more of a stake in the outcome under this proposal. Right now, they're forced to send money to a convention about which they care nothing at all just to have the right to pay more money to vote on the year about which they care. Right now, a lot of people who do care -- not just some impersonal group of "Big Fan Group Members" -- about the site being in their city who are being told "if you want to vote, you're going to have to spend twice as much as just waiting until someone else decides where to hold it."

There's a fundamental unfairness about the voting system that has only gotten worse as the cost of voting has kept increasing in real terms at twice the cost of inflation.

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[info]paradoox
2009-10-15 11:40 pm UTC (link)
No, I don't think things were more dominated by big clubs in the past. On the other hand, maybe Chicago would have won ...

25% cheaper is not the same as 50% cheaper. Also in round terms $20 was still $20 20 years ago. I think a $20 voting fee 20 years was more of a barrier than a $20 voting fee would be today. I don't really have the time to research the exact numbers at the moment (I really should finish my expense reports and then go catchup on that secret mailing list), so I am just talking out of my mouth. But I really don't like the proposal. But I'll admit that I have the money to vote even if I'm probably not going to a convention. I voted in the last NASFiC site selection thinking I might go. But it turns out that even with 5 weeks vacation, I probably don't have the time to got to both NASFiC and Australia.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-16 12:08 am UTC (link)
I don't really have the time to research the exact numbers at the moment
Here are specific and hard numbers. I have the 1990 election for 1993 memorized.

In 1990, if you wanted to vote on the site of the 1993 Worldcon and were not a member already, it would have cost you $50. That's about $80 today.

In 2009, if you wanted to vote on the site of the 2011 Worldcon and were not a member already, it would have cost you about $100. (I say "about" because the supporting membership in the host convention was in CAD and the exact amount varied depending on when you bought it.)

It is therefore 25% more expensive to "climb aboard" than it was twenty years ago, in constant dollars.
But I'll admit that I have the money to vote
Exactly my point. $20 extra today is not as much to you (or me) as $13 extra in 1990 would have been. (I earn roughly twice (in real terms) as much I did back then.)

We Worldcon runners have let all of the costs drift upward in such a way that if the equivalent costs had been in place twenty or so years ago, we ourselves might have been discouraged from paying them. It's also very easy to forget own own economic situations twenty or more years ago. Had Worldcons been as proportionately expensive then as they are now, I might not have been able to scrape together the money to get to my first one, and I might never have gotten on board, and my life would have been significantly different.

(I know, some people would be happier imagining that timeline where Kevin never turned up in WSFS fandom.)

I think you sometimes overstate the influence of the Big Fannish Groups. If just being a SMOF was all that mattered, the 1993 Worldcon would have been in Hawaii, because all of the People In The Know were convinced that the SMOF-approved Hawaii bid was a Done Deal over those poor schmoes from San Fran, Phoenix, and Zagreb.

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[info]apostle_of_eris
2009-10-16 05:28 pm UTC (link)
The problem has been clearly recognized for a while now, and concrete solutions are being proposed. I have no pet proposal personally, so I'm happy to wait to see what gets onto the table. Until proven wrong, I expect to watch the group mind work it out.
Frex, I expect Kevin is open to being convinced that some other detailed proposal is superior. The commitment is to dealing with the problem. I'll probably be at a few more business meetings over this -- it really is that important.

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[info]irishkate
2009-10-16 11:52 pm UTC (link)
just a note on how I see supporting memberships done here in Ireland - you buy the supporting membership for x dollars/euro/pounds and if you choose to attend you pay the difference up to the cost the membership would have been at the time you bought the supporting membership - so if the price goes up closer to the day, you are saved that increase but you pay what ever the difference would have been so that the committee get a full cost membership price from you.

If you don't attend, you pay a minimal cost - though for world con and the voting right I could see that would be of more value that 'just' being a support.

No multiplier involved - the supporting membership is a bit like a non refundable deposit.

It's late here and I don't know for sure if someone has said all this before or if there is a reason it isn't done like this already.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-17 12:27 am UTC (link)
Financially speaking, that sort of supporting membership sounds like an Option to Buy an Attending Membership at a fixed price. Unlike the Worldcon Advance Supporting Membership, however, this Option doesn't expire 90 days later -- it's good all the way until the convention ends.

That is attractive, although it obviously makes more work for the administering convention, which has to make a note of what the Attending cost was at the time each Supporting membership was sold. You could end up with an entire options/futures market on convention memberships!

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[info]irishkate
2009-10-17 01:44 am UTC (link)
grin - that's true -

You could fix it to one price, slightly reduced from the door price.. you could still end up with a futures market of course, but if the slightly reduced price was sufficiently high it would cover the costs and still be low enough to attract people to pay early, but not as low as if they paid in full up front good and early.

And besides you could still put the 90 day expiry on it..

(I am unfamiliar with the current worldcon pricing stucture so I can only go with what I know. The Irish cons tend to have a price which is true up to the start of the con and the supporting membership locks your entry at that price. After that there is on the door entry for the weekend or by day. Of course being tiny in comparison, full price is less than a world con supporting membership!)

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-17 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Worldcons have multiple price tiers, leading up to the at-the-door price. For example, it might run like this:

Until -18 months: $150
Until -12 months: $175
Until -6 months: $200
Until -1 month: $225
At the door: $250

(Those aren't real numbers; it's just to demonstrate that the price goes up over time.)

With the supporting membership at $50, you'd have to keep track of the attending membership cost at the time of purchase so that the person who supported at -20 months could show up at the door and pay only $100 (instead of $200) to convert to attending.

Another possibility might be to expire all options at -30 days, so they couldn't be redeemed at the door. That is, if you bought a supporting membership ($50) at -20 months and didn't upgrade it, then showed up at the con, it would cost you an extra $200 (not $100).

But I must say that the "options" model of locking in a potential upgrade price up to two years in advance has a certain attraction to me, even though it adds complexity. There is some question as to whether it's a net plus for the convention, though. That is, would such a program only cannibalize existing membership revenue without increasing memberships. If so, there's no point in doing it, because it's only giving a discount to the people who are already going to join anyway.

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[info]irishkate
2009-10-17 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Well people who will go anyway are likely to buy the earliest price (ie 150 above) so it makes difference only if banking that money has value to the committee at that time, which it may well do. If it does you could eliminate the option from the lowest membership available - ie you can only upgrade to the 175 price.

I wonder what a break down of the last years purchase dates and prices actually were - it would give an indication of how likely people are to purchase the option and pay later, rather than adding to the revenue. How many people who are going to go anyway join at the -18 month price?

Theoretically you should be able to sell the option well above the potential attendee numbers to people who like the idea of going, would think about going but eventually would not go - whether for family, financial, fandom reasons. The value of being able to pay 175 instead of 250 should be worth 25/30 bucks. Especially when the amount is negligible to people who will actually go.

People like me, currently unemployed, would probably buy supporting on the grounds that if I can't afford to upgrade at -30/60 or even -90 days I won't be going anyway. But I would still get to be part of the event. And if I can afford it, my unemployment previously doesn't cost me an extra 100 dollars which would otherwise put me off.

Keeping track and it's complexity depends on how it is done now. If you choose a deadline it helps keep that extra admin away from the event itself. It could be a simple extra column in a database with the price at purchase noted. If you wanted to be more stringent and complex you could make the options non transferable to prevent options trading.

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[info]irishkate
2009-10-17 06:43 pm UTC (link)
A highly unlikely problem would be (theoretically) that lots of people buy the supporting membership and lots others buy attending membership and 30 days from d-day all the supporting members upgrade and the venue is now too small..

But if I understand the issue with trying to improve the range of the con that would a good kind of disaster....

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-17 07:31 pm UTC (link)
Many recent Worldcons have offered installment-payment plans, which incorporate many of the elements here, including locking in the early price. You start with buying a supporting membership, and then make periodic payments against the membership price. This is attractive to people for whom putting up $150 - $200 all at once is in an impossibly-high barrier, but who can pay $50 every few months or something like that. But it is a limited-use attraction, mainly useful for people who already know something about Worldcon, rather than those coming to the game afresh.

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[info]irishkate
2009-10-17 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Yeah - I rarely choose installment plans since either I am going and have the money - and will pay up front rather than have to remember to pay, or I don't know if I can go at all (it's too far ahead in time, I am unemployed, I have family/work commitments etc etc) but I would like to vote in the Hugo or I think things might change in the future allowing me to attend.

I am poor at deciding 2 years in advance where I am going to be (I am often living in a new country, working in a new job etc). But I would take out an option on it so that as the time approached I could look at my expectations for the year ahead and plan accordingly. Often my work commitments mean it is hard for me to plan that far in advance where 6 months not such a problem.

PS - I am just putting these forward as arguments and suggestions. This would be my view on it not necessarily something that would work for or be true for anybody else.

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[info]irishkate
2009-10-17 01:57 am UTC (link)
From the comments above I see that more than the Hugo vote is at stake in this price for membership game. There is also future worldcon site selections.

A thought - just a thought, and possibly of no value since I have no background, only just having passed the 2 year anniversary of my first con in Ireland and thus bowing to pretty much everyones superior knowledge:

But if the ability to vote for a site were cheaper, then people who live near the possible site and could only afford to go if it were within say 2-3 hours of them could vote for such a site.

Of course this might mean that only huge population centers or places willing to put in huge amounts by buying extra (non attending) votes might dominate. I don't know. But equally it might mean that fans who previously didn't stand a chance of attending might get a shot.

Personally I am interested in voting rights for the Hugo as I suspect it will be many years before I can afford to attend a Worldcon, even if it were next door.

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[info]timill
2009-10-18 03:13 am UTC (link)
Eastercon has an answer to that - when you buy a supporting membership, you can convert it at any time for the current difference in rates. Thus, you buy an advantage, but not the whole advantage, and the admin is much easier.

This only works if the supporting rate increases over time, of course.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

TLTSNBN
[info]crotchetyoldfan
2009-10-17 11:15 am UTC (link)
Kevin,
I think your proposal is an excellent idea, but I was taken by some other things you said on TLTSNBN. In particular your discussion of people's incorrect belief that they are "buying" a Hugo vote, where you talked about membership as being vested in WSFS, and the fact that membership confers some rights and benefits which include voting for site selection, the Hugos, etc.

Discussion regarding the (incorrect) perception of voting and the failure to cast things in a "proper" and positive manner then ensued.

What caught my eye was the correlation between membership in WSFS (not an individual Worldcon) and benefits. The idea I wanted to raise was the concept of further incentivizing WSFS membership and, in part, divorcing said membership from the necessity of con attendance. If WSFS membership was itself to become the desired acquisition (for good and unspecified reasons at this point), membership roles might benefit significantly.

The idea would be to recast Hugo voting as an add-on benefit. Like all of the hard sell commercials: not only will you get the X, and not only will we double your order for the same low, low, price, but you get a vote at no additional charge, that is yours to keep even if you return X.

This would turn on our collective abilities to find and/or develop additional benefits to pass on to members. Perhaps some publishers would be willing to extend a discount, etc., etc.

Just a few more 'radical' thoughts.

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Re: TLTSNBN
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-17 07:33 pm UTC (link)
All of these things sound good to me. If we could somehow make the Hugo Voter Package something we could depend upon every year, it would be a huge incentive to buying supporting memberships; however, the past two years it has been the unofficial action of a single person (Scalzi) that made it happen. He's tired of it (understandably) and the closest thing that WSFS has to an official body on the subject explicitly ordered the Hugo Awards Marketing Committee to not touch it, due to concerns over copyrights and other rights issues.

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