Kevin Standlee ([info]kevin_standlee) wrote,
@ 2009-10-23 11:08:00
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Current location:San Mateo, California
Current mood: grumpy
Entry tags:worldcon

Pros and Cons
Thanks to Gary Farber for pointing out that Mike Resnick is unhappy about Worldcons not being held mostly in the USA near where publishers and pros can get there regularly and driving away all of the media fans. He holds up events like Dragon*Con and Comic-Con as what's good -- professionally-run events with monster attendance, which is good for publishers and good for authors trying to reach their readers.

He's right about some of this stuff, but he also manages to offend people who might otherwise agree with him. He implicitly accuses organisers of lying about their attendance figures -- something that particularly annoys me as a member of the committee that works to try and get accurate figures. The main reason that the past couple of Worldcons may have seemed so under-attended is that we were in spaces larger than our attendance really warranted and because we brought to bear enough people points that queues were relatively limited. Possibly he wouldn't be so skeptical if we'd only taken half the space and caused lots of monster lines and turned people away from major events for lack of space. After all, people seem to really like standing in line for hours and hours, I'm told.

Incidentally, I'm always curious if those five-figure numbers claimed for those events are individual human beings (what Worldcons report) or "sum of daily turnstile" counts. The latter significantly inflates attendance. Also, those mega-events have a fair number of people who show up for a few hours and then go away, never to return, whereas the smaller number of Worldcon attendees are mostly people who stay for most of the convention. We don't have a good "peak bodies on site" count for Worldcons, since we don't measure turnstile. If we did, we could get a more accurate comparison by measuring people-days for all events. The Comic-Cons of the world would still dwarf Worldcon, but it would be interesting. But maybe having multi-day dedicated attendees is a Bad Thing, since it would be better to just keep pushing more bodies through the meat grinder, exposing them to the advertising messages for a few hours, and then saying, "Get out of here so we can get another batch in here for the next show."

He accuses the "movers and shakers" of deliberately conspiring to keep Worldcons out of the USA which is bad because "most of the publishers, most of the writers, and most of the fans are in the United States." This conveniently ignores the fact that the sites for Worldcon are not selected by some tiny secret cabal of "movers and shakers," but by the members themselves. The people who attend Worldcons vote on where to hold Worldcons. Now admittedly, the demographics of this means that the people voting are people who are likely predisposed to travel further afield, but still, to claim that it's ignorance on the part of some small group of "movers and shakers" is something I find offensive.

Besides: you can't select a site if it doesn't bid. Mike knows more about the entire bidding process than most pros, thanks to his extensive experience as a fan. I invite him to do a Worldcon "right." Good luck. Other people (including me) have tried and learned a few hard-knock lessons. Maybe he can fix things that nobody else has managed to fix.

Possibly Mike would like Worldcon to be held in the same place every year -- Chicago, anyone? Or at the very least, maybe he would prefer that it only be held in Tier 1 cities in the largest metropolitan areas. (San Francisco Bay Area might possibly qualify, but it would be better to stick to the LA area, Chicago, and Northeast Corridor to guarantee a large attendance catchment.) Oh, you might allow some of those darn foreigners to hold it once every ten or twenty years for appearances' sake, but everyone knows that only Big American Cities are important, right? And possibly it should be run by the same professional organization every year, and concentrating on getting its membership up into the mid-five-figure range, or better yet, get 150,000 people in there. All that really matters is running up the score, right?

All of the things to increase Worldcon attendance are possible. I've said before that Worldcons would be better of with an attendance closer to 10K than below 5K. But if you did the things that the Monster Events do, could you still with a straight face plausibly call it a Worldcon? Or does that simply not matter? Maybe having >100K people attending is the only thing that matters. In that case, WSFS should just transfer the service marks to San Diego Comic Con, Inc. (Comic-Con's parent) and give up entirely.



(90 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]redneckotaku
2009-10-23 06:43 pm UTC (link)
Mike Resnick's column doesn't show much sense. Bigger doesn't always equal better. I am leary of Dragoncon and will not go to San Diego Comic Con again (unless my employer pays me to work their booth). I can't go to Aussiecon, but I still feel connected to Worldcon through voting in the Hugos and 2012 Site Selection. Worldcon has it's issues (some of which I have written long posts on), but it is a viable con.

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[info]timill
2009-10-23 06:47 pm UTC (link)
http://www.duke-energycenter.com/ looks to be viable prima facie...

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[info]yourbob
2009-10-23 06:52 pm UTC (link)
Most of the publishers are in New York. I guess Worldcon should never ever ever be held anywhere else, of course, because why would anyone in their right mind think that any of the 8 billion people on the planet who DON'T live in the U.S. would even THINK of being a fan of Science Fiction?

Mike Resnick is occasionally a good writer. And I've found he often espouses idiotic ideas.

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[info]dd_b
2009-10-23 07:28 pm UTC (link)
Baen Books isn't in New York.

And various bits and pieces of Tor aren't in New York; Harriet MacDougal is in NC, Beth Fleischer is in Arizona, Jim Frankel is in WI. And I'm not sure that list is complete.

NESFA Press isn't in New York, either.

Looking at my bookshelves, that's quite a bit of the current SF I buy. And I don't know but what there are other important examples not in New York.

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(no subject) - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-23 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jeffreyab, 2009-10-24 03:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-24 03:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gerisullivan, 2009-10-23 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dd_b, 2009-10-23 07:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]solarbird, 2009-10-23 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yourbob, 2009-10-23 08:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anisosynchronic, 2009-10-26 05:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dd_b, 2009-10-26 05:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-26 06:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-26 08:57 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bigblued
2009-10-23 07:02 pm UTC (link)
After all, people seem to really like standing in line for hours and hours, I'm told.

Oddly, to an extent, yes. I used to be involved with a Halloween event where we had a card reader. He was very good at what he did and worked hard to keep his lines as short as possible. The organizers told him to slow down a bit so that a line would always be there. Basically, if there is a line, it is perceived that it must be good, so I want to see it too. No line means that no-one likes it and you won't get in the line either.

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[info]twilight2000
2009-10-23 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I know I'm gonna take a hit for this - but Mike is right about one thing - if publishers don't come to Worldcon, editors don't and if editors don't then writers start not coming - that's a downward trend we're seeing and we need to find a way to stop.

Did Mike go overboard? sure - it's Mike. But there's a nugget in there that we need to hear - and find a way to bring our numbers back up over a 5,000 (and closer to 10K) as a solid regular event. We don't need to be as big as C * C or D * C, but we need to be big enough to be noticed by publishers or we risk losing writers in the long run.

No, I don't know how to fix the numbers issue - I do know it's a problem we need to address.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-23 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I agree with that point. He's right. But as you say, he's going overboard, and I take offense at the accusations. They may not be intended to address me personally, but I'm one of those "movers and shakers" about which he talks, so I'm in the area of effect.

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(no subject) - [info]twilight2000, 2009-10-23 07:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bovil
2009-10-23 11:01 pm UTC (link)
We're in a very weird world here.

In most industries, professional conferences are held either by industry trade groups or professional associations. Genre literature seems to be the only industry that depends on outside non-profit organizations (and different ones every year at that) to organize their major conferences.

If the industry isn't getting what it wants out of Worldcon, the industry has to get involved in the administrative side of Worldcon. It needs to express what it wants and how to get there, not just "oh, it needs to be bigger." Otherwise, it's going to be forever nomadic; Dragon*Con won't last forever and neither will Comic-Con (and there's serious grumbling in the comics industry that Comic-Con doesn't really serve the industry well anymore because it's all about television and movies).

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(no subject) - [info]petrea_mitchell, 2009-10-23 11:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-24 09:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-25 02:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-25 03:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-25 04:52 am UTC (Expand)

[info]querldox
2009-10-23 08:17 pm UTC (link)
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure San Diego attendance is based on how many memberships they sell, as I've never seen any indication of their counting how many people enter the building. That may, as with at least some Worldcons, double count someone who bought, say, both a one-day Friday and a one-day Saturday memberships, but I don't think San Diego's doing anything to deliberately significantly overcount their membership, particularly since they're at the point where they've put their own cap on it.

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[info]rono_60103
2009-10-23 08:40 pm UTC (link)
I've not seen reports on ComicCon's membership breakdown by day now that they are capped.

But, from personal experience I am pretty sure that the number of warm bodies in and around the Convention Center is pretty consistent Thursday through Sunday. (OK, I've only got one data point -- ComicCon is an event I go to mostly because I live here, and prior to last year, I didn't)

Also, this same experience tells me that they do nothing more to count "warm bodies" than what most Worldcons could do -- count the number of actual badges/memberships picked up.

(FWIW, I started doing this for DucKon this year because I wanted to see if there were any classes of membership that had a lower pick-up rate. Doing it the way I did for DucKon would be harder for Worldcon -- I had someone go through the badges that hadn't been picked up and marked them as "not picked up" in the database -- but any Worldcon using the "print everyone's badge at the door" system should be able to record which badges were issued fairly easily)

I cannot make any comments about Dragon*Con since I wouldn't go unless I lived in Atlanta -- and might not even then after having been attacked (on rec.arts.sf.fandom) by some high up in their organization, because I posted that seeing flyers on glossy paper mentioning that tickets could be purchased through TicketMaster made me conclude that it was a professionally run event a-la a Creation Convention, so not an even I'd be interested in attending.

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(no subject) - [info]nolly, 2009-10-23 11:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]yourbob
2009-10-23 08:21 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry to see that most of the commenters here are more concerned with my use of the word "most" as part of sarcasm than with your post. I apologize to you for drawing attention away from your point.

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[info]gaspodex
2009-10-23 08:41 pm UTC (link)
As a a matter of interest the comment on numbers plumeting outside of the the US .. What were the numbers for Glasgow in 2005 ?

And of course no writers/publishers/editors would dream of coming to a backward ward British burg like say (for the sake of an argument *ahem*) London...

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[info]cobrabay
2009-10-23 09:03 pm UTC (link)
From Wikipedia, The total registered membership of the convention was 5202, of which 4115 physically attended.

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[info]rono_60103
2009-10-23 08:48 pm UTC (link)
When reading the corresponding thread on the "List that shall not be named," I was struck with the off the wall radical thought: what would happen if we changed the Worldcon structure so that sites, or at least North American sites, would run the convention for two consecutive years. It would complicate bidding a bit to make is so that if an off-shore location wins, the two consecutive years for the next North American even would be a NASFiC then a Worldcon instead of two Worldcons.

I could see some advantages: Less committee turn over -- or at least a new committee only every other year; A limited ability to get some local traction; Perhaps more negotiation power with facilities; perhaps more.

On the other hand, I can see several disadvantages: More committee burn out; Less appealing to the Worldcon/Summer Vacation crowd (I'm more or less in that group, FWIW); Fewer facilities; perhaps more.

And I don't know if it really addresses some of the key concerns.

Of course if I had the magic solution (or even thought I did) I'd speak up. At the very least, I'd like to see if there is some way that we can reach out to the people attending the 900 pound gorilla cons to see how we might be able to find the people that are at these events who'd also like to be at our events.

We also need to get more people involved in all aspects of running the conventions. We need to do as much as we can to make everyone (realize that they can be) a SMOF :-)

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[info]calimac
2009-10-23 08:49 pm UTC (link)
Writers came to Worldcons when Worldcons were tiny little things of a few hundred people. True, the field was smaller then too, but even then Worldcon attendance was a tiny fraction of the readership. But they were dedicated readers, and still are.

Why did the writers come? Same reason as the readers: to enjoy themselves among SF people. Worldcon is not a trade show, or a place to talk shop with editors, though those things happen there. From a writer's professional POV, it's primarily a place to touch base with readers, to recharge your mental and motivational batteries.

Any writer who doesn't see a point in doing that is probably not going to enjoy Worldcon anyway, and is not going to give much to the other attendees.

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Worldcons
[info]travelswithkuma
2009-10-24 02:07 am UTC (link)
Size is not everthing.
Kuma Bear is small, but Kuma Bear is special.
Worldcons are special.
Of course a few more people to look and admire Kuma Bear would be good.

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[info]wild_patience
2009-10-24 02:40 am UTC (link)
If Resnick is really annoyed at you, he'll write you into a story, at least as a reference to something he disapproves of. That's what he did to [info]calimac when Resnick disagreed with his Hugo administrating.

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[info]howeird
2009-10-24 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Mike is probably inspired by the upcoming World Series, which completely ignores the fact that world-class baseball is played outside of North America and is only played at the two stadiums of this year's winners.

The name Worldcon, of course, ignores the fact that there are other kinds of conventions than science fiction fan cons, so maybe there's parity there. :-)

I personally have only gone to two, Con Jose and Denvention, and plan to go to Reno because it's a beautiful train trip from here. I'm a fan, not a fanatic. I've never been to ComicCon or DragonThing, and don't expect to, as I am not keen on huge mobs and long lines.

For me the draw for a WorldCon is meeting like-minded people from all over the world, meeting some of the best and brightest authors, artists and the occasional fannish sci-fi actors/actresses, and the parties.

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SDCC Count
[info]glenn_glazer
2009-10-24 07:13 pm UTC (link)
I have a friend from my days in San Diego who is now the Treasurer of Comic-Con International's Board of Directors. I sent him a note asking how they count and I'll report back with his response.

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Re: SDCC Count
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-24 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I'm pretty sure ComicCon is total bodies (that's why they've had to impose a limit -- there is no more space). It's some of the other conventions about which I wonder.

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Re: SDCC Count - [info]radlein, 2009-10-25 08:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]karen_w_newton
2009-10-24 08:18 pm UTC (link)
It seems to me if Mike Resnick isn't happy with Worldcon, his obvious recourse is not to go. Maybe you would get better attendance numbers by keeping it in major US cities, but so what? You would also get better numbers by persuading a lot of TV and movies stars to attend and ignoring writers, but then it wouldn't be Worldcon, it would be ComicCon.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but I think one reason some folks didn't go to Anticipation was the recession. I have two friends who would have loved to go to Montreal, but the guy has been out of work for over a year, so it wasn't an option.

It's also worth mentioning that any con is a lot of work, and most of it is done by volunteers. That's one reason there aren't six or eight bids every year.

Thank you for all your hard work. I had a great time at Anticipation.


Edited at 2009-10-24 08:18 pm UTC

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[info]gary_farber
2009-10-24 09:15 pm UTC (link)
"...and because we brought to bear enough people points that queues were relatively limited. Possibly he wouldn't be so skeptical if we'd only taken half the space and caused lots of monster lines and turned people away from major events for lack of space. After all, people seem to really like standing in line for hours and hours, I'm told."

The only really serious mistake that I'm aware of making at Iguanacon (in 1978) was to ticket -- god, 31 years later, without a jog to my memory, I'm forgetting for the moment if it was just Masquerade, in the end, or both the Maquerade and the Hugo ceremony (respectively, Saturday and Sunday night, as was always customary up to then and for some time later).

We were the first Worldcon to ever use a convention center, as well as the Civic Center Auditorium, rather than have a Hugo Awards Banquet.

And we were then the largest Worldcon to date in attendance; and while I don't recall exact figures right now, nor have records at hand to check, there was no doubt that we had a very strong potential for having too many people trying to get into the Hugos and/or Masquerade than we'd have seats for. And the fire marshals were very much present and giving me warnings.

After soliciting advice from all my shift supervisors and giving all possible consideration to all relevant information and estimates, it came down to making a major guess as to just what percentage of our attendees would want to show up.

I made the decision to ticket, and thus make sure we wouldn't be turning people away at the door, but instead, if we had to, simply turning away people from the advance ticket line.

Tickets were, of course, free; we simply asked people to come by the desk in the atrium, the main floor of the convention, we set up where people could pick tickets up.

In retrospect, I clearly erred; instead of everyone coming by at leisure throughout the day to pick up their tickets, which was the idea, most people neglected to do so, and instead formed a huge line not long before the Masquerade (or was it just the Hugo ceremony? Damned if I remember right now). Then, to get into the event, they had to wait on another damn long line to actually get in.

This understandably left a lot of people annoyed, and pointing out to them that they could have gotten their tickets any time in the previous day (or two?; again, memory fails me right now) was pointless; people were justifiably annoyed at how it worked out, and I took and take full responsibility for having made the bad call.

In the end, we just barely filled the auditorium, and had a distinct, though not huge, number of empty seats, although we gave up bothering to ask for tickets towards the end of admissions as it became clear that we weren't going to have a problem, after all. To be sure, the ticketing undoubtedly drove off some who surely must have thought it wasn't worth getting tickets, or making the long walk in the still extremely hot evening of Phoenix over to the Civic Auditorium. But, regardless, the margin of available seats left was sufficient to make it clear, in retrospect, that we need not have ticketed, and I had over-estimated the percentage of people interested in attending, after all. And thus I'd pissed off a couple of thousand people pointlessly, wasting a couple of hours of their convention time they could and should have been able to spend vastly more entertainingly than standing on a damn line or two.

(Although I'm happy to say that it was about the only bad call I made, and the only thing I had any control over at the convention that I thought went at all badly.)

I have to break this comment; second part next.

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[info]gary_farber
2009-10-24 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Crap, I have to go to three parts. Pt 2:


The experience did serve me extremely well, although futilely, in the end, when in 1982, at Chicon IV, I was Director of the three-department Operations subdivision of the Services Division, and wore a second hat as Assistant Director of Services under Ben Yalow, and the same issue arose: ticket or not ticket the Masquerade and Hugos? (Although this time everything was in the sole facility of the ginormous Chicago Hyatt.)

In this case, though, I wasn't effectively running most of the convention, but was, of course, entirely subordinate both to Ben, and to the co-Chairs, the late and much missed Ross Pavlac and Larry Propp.

We all conferred on the decision, and I argued like mad for not ticketing, citing my experience at Iguanacon as to how badly it would work out, that the estimates of the percentage of how many would want to attend that Larry and Ross were convinced would want to come were wrong. (I have to apologize to Ben Yalow that my memory fails me right now on reliably remembering what his exact stance was, though I think I vaguely report that he and I were in alignment on this.)

What I remember with great vividness is that I couldn't have argued more strongly against ticketing, saying that I put every bit of possible credibility in my judgment I had with Ross and Larry on the line, that I was absolutely sure that ticketing would result in huge unnecessary lines that would take hours of waiting, and be the hugest mistake Chicon IV would make, and would piss off fans more than anything else we could possibly do. I walked up as close to the line of insubordination as possible, given that, of course, it was absolutely Larry and Ross's call, and they were entirely hands on in making the call.

And their call was absolutely to go with ticketing, to be safe.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-24 09:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-10-26 04:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-26 08:27 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]radlein
2009-10-25 08:28 am UTC (link)
One sentence that stood out for me in Mike Resnick's article was "I have been to the last three DragonCons (where Baen Books is always a presence), and the number of publishers and editors has literally tripled in that short time."

...which ignores the fact that the last few years have been among the first times since Dragon*Con was forced to move to Labor Day that Worldcon wasn't on that date itself. I love Dragon*Con immensely, but the next time there's an American Labor Day Worldcon, I fully expect Dragon*Con's SF literary programming to be eviscerated (with luck, they'll get a few good genre horror authors that year, perhaps). If you want to know why there's been a better literary presence at Dragon*Con the last couple of years, there's your reason, not some dimming of Worldcon's star.

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-25 12:36 pm UTC (link)
Which suggests that D*C has become the de facto American National Science Fiction Convention -- not NASFiC (which D*C hosted in 1995) "AmeriCon." We've always assumed that if there ever was a formal AmeriCon, it would move around like Westercon or Worldcon, but D*C has effectively assumed that role with a fixed-location convention.

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(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-26 08:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Worldcons
(Anonymous)
2009-10-26 01:50 am UTC (link)
I posted this elsewhere -- Kevin's comments appeared somewhere else as well -- but though I've had my say and am through addressing the topic, I don't mind reprinting it here.

-- Mike Resnick

#

If I’m wrong about padding the attendance figures, I apologize — but it no way diminishes any of the points I made. A few former worldcon chairs — obviously not Kevin — have e-mailed me privately to say they, too, are alarmed. When I’ve asked them to speak up, they’ve opted not to, primarily because they are convinced that the movers and shakers tend to shoot the messenger.

As I’ve said whenever and wherever I’ve written about it, I will keep attending Worldcon until one of us — me or the Worldcon — expires. But that doesn’t mean I wish it wasn’t dying a slow and avoidable death.

I won’t be addressing the subject again. If I didn’t convince the SMOFs who read Mind Meld (where almost all the editors and artists pointed out -the
ir- problems with the direction Worldcon is going), and I didn’t convince those who were given a link to my Jim Baen’s Universe editorial, I don’t imagine carrying on endlessly here is going to win any converts.

I have been going to Worldcons since 1963. I love them; they are always one of the highlights of my year. I am genuinely sorry I have had to add other conventions to my schedule because of the actions (inactions?) Worldcon has taken. I am not dancing on its grave; I am hoping that the small cotorie of SMOFs who run it will do something to make sure it doesn’t visit its grave before I visit mine.

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Re: Worldcons
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-26 02:23 am UTC (link)
I too, have my concerns about Worldcons, as anyone who actually pays attention who what I write knows. What I'm saying is that if you cloak those concerns with accusations of deliberate malfeasance on the part of the people who are working their tails off to put on the events, well, it doesn't make those people very receptive to listening to your message, no matter how correct you may be. Indeed, by being so rude, you may well cause people who might otherwise be willing to listen to you to say, "Oh, he's so obviously wrong about those other points that nothing else he says can be taken seriously."

And you're not helping by doing a hit-and-run, Mike. You're effectively saying, "I'm so right that I don't have to defend my position and can be as rude and obnoxious as I want to be."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Worldcons - (Anonymous), 2009-10-26 03:03 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Worldcons - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-26 04:02 am UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2009-10-26 05:04 am UTC (link)
Kevin, I haven't got the time for an endless fannish argument that will solve nothing. I have never said I don't want Worldcon to go out of the country; what I said was that when it goes out 5 times in 8 years, publishers, and hence editors, and hence writers, and hence fans find other venues. Someone uptopic seemed to say I was belittling other countries and calling London the equivalent of a backwater, and of course that's not true...but if you will look at the attendance the year before and the year after Worldcon has gone to London, you'll see a large dip for the year it was across the Atlantic. Worldcon can handle that and bounce back from it every 4 or 5 years; it is much mroe difficult when it happens 5 times in 8 years. And that's hardly the only problem. Worldcon used to be -the- science fiction event of the year. Everyone who could go did go. But in bits and pieces, often by accident, it has driven away segments of prodom and fandom. Rather than feeling complacent because we had 3800 this year (I think that was your number) when I suggested it was under 3000, try looking at who -doesn't- come, who has said in Mind Meld and elsewhere that it's no longer worth the effort. Look at what Bob Eggleton and John Piccacio say about the treatment artists get year in and year out from Worldcons. Look at Eos saying they've given up on Worldcon. Look at Lou Anders saying that if it gets any smaller he can't convince Pyr to send him. Listen to the kids at DragonCon and elsewhere explain why they went to a worldcon, felt unwanted and slighted, and won't go back.

I'm not a pro who's looking to be comped; I've always paid my own way, and often donated my time as well. I've been going to these things since before half the people who have written in this topic were born. I went for 17 years as a fan before I started going as a pro and doing business. I know the enormous regard with which it was once viewed, and I believe that it hasn't fallen so far...yet...that it can't be resurrected.

But as those former worldcon chairman who e-mailed me that they agree but won't come out in public and say it, the first step is to confront the problem rather than shoot the messenger. And this -is- my last post here.

Mike Resnick

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[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-26 05:25 am UTC (link)
if you will look at the attendance the year before and the year after Worldcon has gone to London, you'll see a large dip for the year it was across the Atlantic.
The last time a Worldcon was in London was in 1965 (the year I was born), and you're right in that case -- 350, down from 523. However, I'm assuming you're using "London" to mean "anywhere in Europe," and you're right -- Worldcons not held in major metropolitan areas in the USA are generally smaller than Worldcons held in major metropolitan areas in the USA.

The reason Worldcons have gone where they've gone has been because the members of the Worldcon keep voting to send them there. Presumably you would take that decision out of the hands of the actual members and put it into the hands of a small, select cabal... oh, that's right, that's what you think already happens, except they don't pick the cities you want.

Mike, you'll never win the lottery unless you buy a ticket, and a city will never host a Worldcon if they don't bid to hold it. We've been in the cities we've been in because (a) those cities bid and (b) the voters selected them. You may not like the fact that the 2011 Worldcon is going to be in the smallest American metro area in its history (by my reckoning), but the alternative was no Worldcon, as the only other bid -- Seattle, which is one of those major metro areas, but probably too far away from New York City to suit you -- lost its facilities and had to withdraw. If you think we need more American Worldcons in Big American Cities, then you should be encouraging bids from those big cities. I'm getting the impression from you that even the San Francisco Bay Area isn't big enough: only Boston/Chicago/LA suit you.

You appear to be completely clueless that I'm one of the people who has urged some of the reforms you seem to have suggested (although you won't really come out with any specifics other than "it goes outside the USA too often"). My frustration is that I'm someone who actually has been trying to do things to help, and for my trouble, I not only get accused of being a Dangerous Radical Lunatic by some people, I get told I'm a liar and a cheat by others.

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(no subject) - [info]calimac, 2009-10-26 03:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-26 03:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]peanut13171, 2009-10-26 07:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]calimac, 2009-10-26 08:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-26 08:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-26 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]petrea_mitchell, 2009-10-26 04:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anisosynchronic, 2009-10-26 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]calimac, 2009-10-26 08:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]petrea_mitchell, 2009-10-26 10:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-27 12:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]palatinate, 2009-10-26 06:12 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]barry_short
2009-10-26 07:07 pm UTC (link)
You asked: "But if you did the things that the Monster Events do, could you still with a straight face plausibly call it a Worldcon?"

With attendance of barely 3000, can you plausibly call it a Worldcon?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-26 07:27 pm UTC (link)
It depends on what's important: Is size the only determinant of success?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-26 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)
hitting the target on the Moebius Strip - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-26 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: hitting the target on the Moebius Strip - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-26 10:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: hitting the target on the Moebius Strip - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-27 12:03 am UTC (Expand)
Re: hitting the target on the Moebius Strip - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-27 01:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-26 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-26 11:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-26 11:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-27 12:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-27 12:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-27 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2009-10-27 02:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-27 02:27 am UTC (Expand)
CCI Tokyo - [info]radlein, 2009-11-01 07:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-27 12:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-27 02:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]davidshallcross, 2009-10-27 05:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]barry_short, 2009-10-27 11:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kevin_standlee, 2009-10-27 11:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gary_farber, 2009-10-26 09:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Worldcons outside the US
(Anonymous)
2009-10-28 11:33 am UTC (link)
Speaking as someone based in Western Europe, we do not get Worldcons here that often, and to be quite honest I am thankful for that. When we do get them they are a bit special and publishers in the UK for the UK ones push out the boat a bit more than they would otherwise.

For me holding a Worldcon in the UK every 7 or 8 years would be about right and if I want (which often I do) I will go to an overseas Worldcon in between UK ones, so I feel in touch.

Meanwhile you guys can keep holding every other Worldcon in the US. No problem.

Regarding increasing numbers. Well SF books, cinema and TV do feed off of each other and more could be done to explore this synsergism and bring in film buffs who also read. Worldcon press and PR also really sucks. (Sorry.) We (Concatenation) regularly request the Worldcon press officer for a wrap-up PR giving numbers, highlights etc of the event and while such follow-up articles would not benefit that Worldcon in terms of numbers it would raise the profile of Worldcons generally (and yes I know what I am talking about having done the PR for some Eurocons and got nationwide coverage). Alas while we get the standard stuff, no Worldcon press officer has in the past 10 years replied to our requests (though they are happy to send us stuff in advance of the event (before the news has actually happened)).

In short it would be possible to increase numbers and with careful PR and to do so without unduly changing the character of the Worldcon. But maybe volunteer fan organisers aren't sufficiently focussed for this...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Committees Don't Care After They're Finished
[info]kevin_standlee
2009-10-28 02:04 pm UTC (link)
You have hit upon one of the many problems that our current structure has. The main reason you don't get that post-con wrap-up is that once a given Worldcon has ended, that Worldcon committee has no incentive to do anything else. Yes, it would help Worldcons generally, but next year's Worldcon is a completely separate organization, and none of the effort that the just-ended Worldcon might put in will help that just-ended Worldcon -- only completely separate, independent organizations who are meanwhile thinking about their own separate, independent concerns.

Besides, even if they do have some people who care, the committees are utterly exhausted and in collapse after the herculean effort of running a million-dollar one-shot convention. And few people understand that the convention isn't really over after Closing Ceremonies. I've been there myself, more than once. I remember going to a Worldcon committee meeting being held four months after the convention and having another person who had attended but not participated in the planning saying to me, "Why are you holding committee meetings? The con's over -- there's nothing left to do." But in fact a Worldcon's responsibilities continue, sometimes for years after the con ends; however, there's rarely many people left who are interested in that boring post-con clean-up work.

WSFS has done tiny little steps toward addressing individual elements of this issue. The Hugo Awards Marketing Committee and the Hugo Awards web site are a start. But none of these things can go very far, because every time they start to show some success, someone starts yelling "WSFS Inc.! To the Barricades!" and cuts back on funding or hamstrings the ability of any of these centralizing groups to actually accomplish anything. I was in a meeting this year where several very important movers and shakers agreed strongly with the statement that "WSFS wants the Mark Protection Committee to remain weak, powerless, and completely dependent upon individual Worldcon committees for funding."

As long as Worldcon committees are more focused upon their individual, local, parochial interests than upon the ongoing entity "Worldcon," you will continue to have great difficulty getting any information out of them once their event has ended, on account of they no longer have any reason to care.

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